Punctuation

[william williams]

Thank you David it leads one to understand some of the results but it does not excuse the reason why judges names are not placed on the result sheet with a brief summery. We pay the entrance fee surely we are entitled to some thing for our dough. I for one object to chucking good money away for nil return.


bill williams

[David Campbell]

Conditions vary, Bill...it's up to the organisers. Some competitions, for example the Bundaberg Bush Lantern, insist on anonymity for the judges (there are 3). The judges are required to sign a statement that they will not reveal their involvement. In a situation like this you can't really get a summary because each judge operates independently and doesn't know who the other two are.

Other competitions announce the judge's name as part of their advertising, perhaps in order to demonstrate that it's an ABPA sanctioned competition. There may be a judge's report or an opportunity to pay an extra amount (usually $10) to get an individual written assessment of your poem. Such an assessment can take up to an hour, hence the cost.

Yet again, there are some judges who don't want it to be known that they are judging a competition in case people try to take advantage of that by submitting poems on favourite topics (like horses!).

But, by and large, judges do what they are asked to do by the competition organisers.

David

[Glenny Palmer]

Everybody who's serious about written competitions should have to judge at least one...100+ entries, with instructions to pick the top five, in order. It's the only way to gain any perspective on the range of material submitted and the time involved.

I'll have to get some tips on critiquing offa you David. Some of mine take me 2 hours+! Depends on how excited I am about the poem's prospects I guess....& controlling my obsessional brain.

I refer back to my prior post where I was musing on the idealistic idea of grooming new judges. It seems they are sorely needed so perhaps this isn't so ambitious after all. The workshop presenter (an already accredited judge...or 2 for that matter) would already have made the top 5 selections from a batch of obsolete entries, (minus the already announced winners & minor awardees) Attendees would be required to each judge that batch of entries & select their 5 top entries with a 'why' attached, prior to the workshop. Then it could all be hammered out together in the workshop....after some prior 'instruction.' We would need permission from the comp organisers of the 'obsolete' batch of entries, but as all poems are anonymous I don't see any need for poets' permissions. Getting up to 100 entries to the workshop participants needs thinking through, but it could be done. Perhaps the cost & effort of doing so & the presenters' fees can be borne by the attendees, as a normal fee for the workshop? Even Arts funding could doubtless be forthcoming for this. At the close of business the presenters could recommend those who,(whom?) in their opinion, qualify to be on the ABPA's accredited judges' list?...but keep mentoring those who didn't quite make it at that time. We could even have a bang up presentation awards 'do' to welcome our new judges??

I dunno. This is all thinking out loud on my part, but I am keen to see if we can't improve this situation.
Over to you my learned friend. (You can thank me later... )

Cheeers
Glenny

[David Campbell]

Hi Glenny

I've had to really discipline myself with the time devoted to competition crits. Early on I was well over the hour sometimes because I ended up almost rewriting whole poems if the original looked promising. And that wasn't a good idea, either for the poet or with regard to the time involved. The problem is that the more comments you make the greater the problems seem to be, and poets can be discouraged by a long list of faults...that's partly where the 'too pedantic' accusations come from. So I try to give a few general suggestions about areas of weakness, with some specific ideas related to a couple of stanzas as examples. Metre is the usual culprit, and the hardest thing to explain is the lack of that special spark, the 'wow' factor. There are always poems where the technique is fine, but there's nothing to lift it out of the ordinary.

Of course, it's a different situation if you're approached outside a competition because then you know the person concerned.

The only real problem I have with your workshop idea relates to logistics...getting 100+ entries (maybe a smaller number would be advisable) to participants and finding a suitable place to hold it. If the necessary photocopying/posting/location could be organised it would be a fascinating exercise because it would highlight once again the differences in perception by individual judges. To refer back to the Bush Lantern again, there's a case in point. Each of the 3 judges has to select his/her top 20 poems in order and allocate a mark. But there are usually no more than about 5 poems on all three lists. It's quite possible to win a prize with a poem that's only been recognised by two of the judges. So having to explain in a workshop why particular choices were made would be highly instructive in itself, given that there is no absolute 'right' answer.

You're right in saying we sorely need new judges, particularly given criticism related to the "same old" ones being recycled. Although, of course, it does raise the question of exactly who out there might actually be interested in doing the job. As a side issue, only 5 of the 16 judges on my 2009 list are women. Is there anything in that? I don't know. But in the writing world outside bush poetry, judges (and entrants) are more likely to be women for the simple reason that local writing groups (like book clubs) are predominantly female. Each year Melbourne Books publishes Award Winning Australian Writing, which is a collection of free verse and short stories. In the 2013 edition 37 of the 52 winning pieces are by women.

(Sorry, Mal, this has strayed from your original post!)

David

[william williams]

but it does not excuse the reason why judges names are not placed on the result sheet with a brief summery.

Yes David I do concede there are problems but the statement above should be made mandatory for all competition venues though the word judges could be replaced without the judges name.


thank you Bill Williams

[keats]

I'm just wondering if anyone writes for the pleasure of others anymore if there is no trophy or prize money to be gained to add to one's resume?

Years back you would never see a poem show as wining or being high placed in any more than one comp. After that the writer would withdraw from any other comps the poem was entered in, These days I have seen some poems obtain awards in up to Five or Six Comps???? How does the judging work in these cases?

[Vic Jefferies]

Keats we have discussed the issue you raise about the same poem winning multiple awards (there are a couple of poems doing just that at the moment) but the feeling seemed to be why not?

[David Campbell]

It depends on the rules, Neil. Some competitions (e.g. Dunedoo, Henry Lawson Society, North Pine, Hunter Bush Poets) will accept poems provided they have not previously won a first prize, so poems that have won minor awards elsewhere can legitimately be submitted. If they still only win minor awards they'll keep cropping up, and this has been happening for yonks. Just as performance poets keep winning awards with the same poem in multiple competitions. It's always puzzled me that writers are expected to keep producing new work all the time, but the same weight of expectation doesn't seem to apply in the performance competition arena. The only restriction might be that a poem can't have been previously recited in that particular competition.

In addition, if there's a rule in a written comp. that says poems can't have won a first prize by the closing date, you may get such a poem submitted to a couple of competitions simultaneously when they have similar closing dates...and if both subsequently win prizes about the same time it can look a bit suss. But there are also competitions that don't allow poems to be entered elsewhere until after results are announced. Some comps (Blackened Billy) ban poems that have won a first, second or third prize, while others (Grenfell Henry Lawson, Banjo Paterson) don't seem to be concerned about previous awards, but won't accept anything that's been published. Then there's the whole question of whether or not we're talking about publishing for payment, something I've banged on about before. All that being said, it would appear that there has been some rule-breaking recently...one case in particular, which is a worry...but that raises the question of what to do about it because this only emerges after awards have been made. Take back the award? Public flogging? It'd be hard to prove it was deliberate as there's always the possibility that the rules were simply misread or misunderstood.

It's a real minefield that's very difficult to police because it relies on organisers and judges being aware of poems that have won awards in other competitions, and nobody can be completely across the detail of that. I retire my own poems permanently if they've won a first prize and avoid submitting the same poem simultaneously to competitions, although that can be frustrating if there's a long and unannounced delay before results are published. In answer to your question about whether anyone writes "for the pleasure of others" any more, I know there are those who have no interest in written competitions because they've said so on this site. Just as there are performers who expect to be paid and others who do it simply for the enjoyment.

As for myself, I spent 40 years writing poems for special family/friend and work occasions...just for the pleasure of others...and now I do it in retirement for the challenge that competitions offer, the prize money, the publication opportunities and because, like Glenny, I love playing with words. It's a hobby that's become most enjoyable 'work'. If others appreciate the result, that's a bonus. And judging is one way of giving something back.

David

[Zondrae]

David and anyone else reading,

My reason for writing is because I feel I must. I do it for me first but it is nice to know that some others have read some of my scribble and liked it. I began to enter competitions to assure myself I am not wasting trees. I haven't been active recently because I am learning to play a musical instrument and there goes the time I used to use for writing. I am feeling more confident about my playing and lately I have begun to write little bits so I hope to have something decent again soon. This all sounds so egocentric. But I guess at my stage of life I can take some time for me.

[Stephen Whiteside]

Yes, I'm like Zondrae. I need the creative outlet. I tend to write a poem first, and then think about what - if anything - I can do with it after that. As often as not, I don't do anything much with them at all.