Are there limits to metre and rhyme?

[manfredvijars]

Thanks for that Peely.
I see a slight variation of SEVEN metrical feet in the structure ...


(7) Out in the wastes of the West countrie, Out where the white stars shine,
(8) Grim and silent as such men be, Rideth a man with a history -
(3) Anthony Considine.

(7) For the ways of men they are manifold As their differing views in life;
(7) For some are sold for the lust of gold And some for the lust of strife:
(7) But this man counted the world well lost For the love of his neighbour's wife.

etc ...

---

A few other poems with sound structures ...

The Highwayman
Alfred Noyes

The Runaway Slave at Pilgrim's Point
Elizabeth Barrett Browning

A few Australians ...

The Swimmer (structure)
by Adam Lindsay Gordon


Gallop of Fire (structure)
Ave, Australia (multi-sylabic endrhymes)
and for contemprary social comment ... The Keening
all by Marie E.J. Pitt


... and a few by John Shaw Neilson
Julie Callaway
Break of Day
In the Street
---

[David Campbell]

Thanks, John, that's a very useful example. Here's a short Les Murray poem that might fit Neville's reference to "modern poetry based on traditional forms".

Cockspur Bush

I am lived. I am died.
I was two-leafed three times, and grazed,
but then I was stemmed and multiplied,
sharp-thorned and caned, nested and raised,
earth-salt by sun-sugar. I was innerly sung
by thrushes who need fear no eyed skin thing.
Finched, ant-run, flowered, I am given the years
in now fewer berries, now more of sling
out over directions of luscious dung.
Of water crankshaft, of gases the gears
my shape is cattle-pruned to a crown spread sprung
above the starve-gut instinct to make prairies
of everywhere. My thorns are stuck with caries
of mice and rank lizards by the butcher bird.
Inches in, baby seed-screamers get supplied.
I am lived and died in, vine woven, multiplied.

Now here's the challenge to those who are interested, and it would be good if a lot of people responded in order to get some idea of current thinking. You have to pass judgement on the metre and rhyme in Anthony Considine and Cockspur Bush (and any examples that Neville might post) using the ABPA judging sheet. It says that metre must be "regular throughout" and that rhyme must be a "consistent pattern throughout, avoiding laboured changes to normal speech patterns". There is also a statement that: "It is incumbent upon the judge to discern if any variations in metre and rhyme are appropriate." For each poem, in the separate categories of metre and rhyme, you have to rate them in terms of "Needs Attention" or "Satisfactory" or "Very Good" or "Outstanding". It would be useful to give brief reasons for your decisions. It's what judges have to do. Go to it!

Cheers
David

[Neville Briggs]

David, Les Murray does use traditional forms and stretches the boundaries, though probably he extends the limits to a greater extent than might be possible for learners like me.
I have a couple of examples that might be interesting, I just have to find some time to put them up.

[Neville Briggs]

I am not always sure what I mean, David.

I suppose by rigid metre I mean (what Manfred has said too ) the endless tramp of unvarying iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb, as if this was some sort of perfection and correctness.

C.J.Dennis was committed to precise metric form but I found a couple of examples where even he was flexible at times. Or so it seems to my ear.

The AXEMAN. C.J.Dennis

High on the hills, where the tall trees grow,
There lives an axeman that I know,
From his little hut by a ferny creek,
Day after day, week after week,
He goes each day with his shining axe,
Trudging along the forest tracks;
And he chops and he chops till the daylight goes -
High on the hills, where the blue gum grows.


Would Mr. Dennis get marked down in a bush poetry comp for not having consistent metre.

Another example;

THE BAND C.JDennis

Hey, there ! Listen awhile ! Listen awhile, and come.
Down the street there are marching feet, and I hear the
beat of a drum.
Bim ! Boom ! Out of the room ! Pick up your hat and fly!
Isn't it grand ? The band ! The band ! The band is marching
by.

That seems to me to be the sort of variation and slight creative stretching of metric form that is easily acceptable in bush poetry but gets discouraged by the wooden interpretation of consistent metre. Not to mention capitalised lines

[David Campbell]

Thanks, Neville. Okay, so now we have a couple more examples to work with...and C. J. Dennis regularly broke with strict orthodoxy when it came to metre. But as far as assessing these poems using the ABPA judging criteria and giving them a rating there has been a deafening silence so far. If they don't fit the ABPA rule that metre must be "regular throughout", are any variations in metre "appropriate"?

Come on, where is everybody? Have a go!

David

[vwalla]

I was drawn to Bush poetry because of the ease given each poem with fluid metre and obvious rhyme.
I have no idea on the technicalities of writing poetry nor do I care .
All that worries me that it is easy to read fluidly, has a good story line and that I understand ( with no need to have the Author explain the object) and whether I enjoy it.
Another reason I liked about Bush Poetry at the time of joining (1997) there were no evident politics or egocentric agendas.
Please let us get back to that era where we didn't analyse everything and we enjoyed and appreciated each others efforts.
To my mind either you like it or you don't . Then move on.
Val W

[Neville Briggs]

Val, if you have no idea about technicalities of poetry and don't care.... then why on earth do you bother to write poetry?
Try joining the golf club and saying loudly, I have no idea of the technicalities of golf and I don't care.

Who is analysing everything. Everything !!
Who doesn't appreciate the efforts of others ?
Who has a political or egocentric agenda ?


So what are we going to do, move on, where ?

[keats]

I have been a member for twenty years and I find nothing more satisfying than seeing Bush Poetry questioned, modernised, scrutinised and more than anything, diversified. These forum have been a wonderful learning and debating medium and I for one would not like to see it slip back to the 'old days' and 'old subjects' where everyone had to write in the same few rhyme and meter patterns and a very restricted content. Horses, Dogs and Drought. We have moved on. It is a great thing that writers now are actually querying and debating what were once accepted as 'Rules' and more importantly, what they considered 'ABPA Rules' which were not to be wavered from. We are writers. We are modern writers. We are thinkers. What would the early English Poets have thought of the 'crudeness' of Paterson and Lawson and many others. The same as some believe that those Australian Poets would look upon modern day Bush Poetry topics.

I don't believe there are anywhere near as many boundaries to our craft as a precious few try to make out to preserve there small place in an overall flourishing craft.

Push the boundaries; extend the topics; experiment with new meter and rhyming patterns; and enjoy the challenge. And hopefully in the future people will look back upon our works as a history of our current Australia in verse, just as we look back at the history our past poets put together in rhyme.

Neil

[manfredvijars]

HEAR HEAR Neil!!!


As a "judge" it is NOT my job to pick the winner! If I approached the competition with that mentality, I would NOT be doing my job!!

My job (as a judge) is to assess the piece according to the criteria set.

"By definition, Australian Bush Poetry is metred and rhymed poetry about Australia, Australians and/or the Australian way of life."

So, (By definition),
Is it,
1. Australian Bush Poetry? ... FAIL
2. metred? ... erratic and undefined - FAIL
3. rhymed? ... mostly end-rhymed - PASS
4. about Australia, Australians" ... 50/50
5. and/or the Australian way of life.? ... PASS


Test #1. Australian "Bush" Poetry,
Cockspur Bush, Erythrina crista-galli is a flowering tree in the family Fabaceae, native to Argentina, Uruguay, southern Brazil and Paraguay.
Not an Australian "Bush" Poetry - FAIL!!!

Test #2, Metre
(will 'loosely' identify iambic and anapaest rythmes)
Too many 'catches' and 'hangs' - FAIL

Cockspur Bush
I am lived. I am died. ... iambic ?
I was two-leafed three times, and grazed, .... iambic
but then I was stemmed and multiplied, ... anapaest
sharp-thorned and caned, nested and raised, ... anapaest
earth-salt by sun-sugar. ^ I was innerly sung ... falters
by thrushes who need fear no eyed skin thing. ... falters
Finched, ant-run, flowered, I am given the years ... anapaest (forced)
in now fewer berries, now more of sling ... anapaest
out over directions of luscious dung. .... ## by about here I'll have read enough of the "metre"
Of water crankshaft, of gases the gears
my shape is cattle-pruned to a crown spread sprung
above the starve-gut instinct to make prairies
of everywhere. My thorns are stuck with caries
of mice and rank lizards by the butcher bird.
Inches in, baby seed-screamers get supplied.
I am lived and died in, vine woven, multiplied.
----

Test #3, Rhyme
Erratic, but YES, the piece has 'rhyme' - PASS

I am lived. I am died.
I was two-leafed three times, and grazed,
but then I was stemmed and multiplied,
sharp-thorned and caned, nested and raised,
earth-salt by sun-sugar. I was innerly sung
by thrushes who need fear no eyed skin thing.
Finched, ant-run, flowered, I am given the years
in now fewer berries, now more of sling
out over directions of luscious dung.
Of water crankshaft, of gases the gears
my shape is cattle-pruned to a crown spread sprung
above the starve-gut instinct to make prairies
of everywhere. My thorns are stuck with caries
of mice and rank lizards by the butcher bird.
Inches in, baby seed-screamers get supplied.
I am lived and died in, vine woven, multiplied.

---

Test #4. about Australia, Australians
Argentinian 'bush', Butcher bird
... 50/50

Test #5. and/or the Australian way of life.?
(Australian) Butcher bird habits - PASS


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With those five BASIC filters applied the piece may, or may not progress to the next series of readings.
Each piece that made it this far, would then be read thropugh a number of 'lens'.

a. Story,
b. Grammar,
c. word usage,
d. application of grammar,
e. rich language and
f. WOW factor.

As well as any number of other filters applied by the Competition Organisers.

==============

Hope this helps ...

Manfred.

[Vic Jefferies]

Manfred you left out "poetic content." We don't have a criteria for that!