Homework 29/6/15: A Shadow on the Stair

[David Campbell]

Many thanks Irene, and I apologise for overlooking your two competitions.

Bob, I suspect competition organisers usually set limits to facilitate the work of judges. Judging a whole host of poems with 100+ lines is a pretty onerous task.

As Shelley says, the story being told (assuming there is a story and it’s not purely a descriptive piece) will determine the length. For example, Catherine’s Chronicle (104 lines), which won both the Henry Lawson at Gulgong and the Banjo Paterson at Orange, is a very ambitious poem that basically tells the story of the Gallipoli campaign from one man's point of view…not something that can be done briefly or easily. Ed Walker’s Birth of our Spirit, which won the first Bryan Kelleher Award in 2008 ran to 148 lines and covered the history of Australia. The Ipswich Poetry Feast poem that Maureen mentions is presumably the rhyming poem referred to in another thread that (rather confusingly) won the ‘Other Poetry’ section in 2012. It was divided into 10 sections (196 lines), telling the devastating story of a man and the loss of his farm. (But then again, line lengths vary, so the number of lines doesn’t necessarily indicate the “length” of a poem.)

With free verse, it’s fairly common to find longer poems like this, with several distinct sections (or “chapters”, if you like), each perhaps using a completely different structure. My Freexpression poem (referred to in Brenda’s AWAW thread) has three separate sections relating to different stages in a person’s life, although it’s only 75 lines long.

One way of looking at it is to take the “value added” approach…does this extra stanza (or whatever) add value to what you want to say? If it doesn’t, leave it out. And it’s always worth asking if something that might seem essential should be omitted and left to the imagination of the reader. The poem that started this thread provides no detail at all, so everyone is free to provide their own interpretation. Which means that the threat will play itself out in very individual ways.

Cheers
David

[Neville Briggs]

The idea of shorter poems with a line limit is a great idea Terry.
Such an undertaking requires the writer to make every word count in meaning and impact. Surely that is what poetry is about.
If writers want to go on and on with prolific story telling perhaps they would be better off working as novelists.

And I think this could apply to performance as well. I've sat listening to performance poetry and at about line 70 I have no idea what they are talking about because I have forgotten what came before so long ago.

I can easily think of two poems that are famous and enduring and are relatively brief.
John McRae's In Flanders Fields. Only 15 lines but a masterpiece.
And there's Dorothea Mackellar's My Country. 48 lines but solidly part of the Australian literary oeuvre.

I submitted a written verse once and the judge commented that it "didn't have enough meat for a competition " I wondered if I had mistakenly entered the beef cattle, or the prize pumpkin competition.

[Terry]

I tend to agree with you Neville, maybe because I have a short attention span.
I take my hat of to the writers who have the patience to write and properly edit a really long poem,
but like you I personally prefer much shorter poems. 'Flanders Field' as you mention is a perfect example.

But I guess we all have our preferences, which is what poetry's all about.

Cheers Terry

[Bob Pacey]

The purpose should be the poetry not the judges attention span.

( I suspect competition organisers usually set limits to facilitate the work of judges. Judging a whole host of poems with 100+ lines is a pretty onerous task. )


Just get more judges or pay them more I say, a revolution maybe needed.


Bob

[Terry]

Some poetry competitions are judged without a fee for the judge Bob - it's hard enough finding the funds to pay the winners and other cost - not all competitions have a sponsor.
If by chance there is a small profit (often unlikely) then it can be used to help keep struggling poetry groups solvent.

In these cases the judge is usually a member of that group just doing their bit to help their Poetry group.

Terry

[Bob Pacey]

Volunteers or otherwise I still cannot see a reason for stipulating a length of poems,

I liken it to refs in sport if you are going to do the job be it for payment or otherwise then do it well or at least to the best of your ability.

I have a big gripe also with the published or unpublished stipulation that we have discussed in detail on other threads as well. If you want new poems all the time then include a section for that if you want.



Bob

[David Campbell]

What you’re saying might be fine in theory, Bob, but the practice is rather more complicated. Terry is right about the way most competitions are run. Unless they’re sponsored (very rare) or supported by the ABPA (for example, the national championships) they rely on entry fees and goodwill to assist when engaging judges. There’s not a lot of money to spare, so “pay the judges more” has limits. There’s something of a dilemma for organisers…a low fee to encourage more entries, or a high fee and possibly fewer entries? So one basic question for your “revolution” is: where does the money come from to pay judges more?

As for increasing the number of judges, there are currently 20 of us on the ABPA list, and I don’t know how many others are interested and willing. Your name’s not there, for example. If it was, you’d have to be prepared to sit in judgement on longer poems in many competitions, and, given your often-stated refusal to even read anything of any length, how would you cope with that? (You said you didn’t even finish the first segment of that Ipswich poem, which was only 36 lines long.) Or would you insist on only judging competitions with a low line limit (40, for example)? Which contradicts your push for “no limits”. And would you be prepared to follow through on an open-ended competition with your statement “if you are going to do the job be it for payment or otherwise do it well or at least to the best of your ability”? If not, what if a lot of other people who might be judges also don’t like longer poems? So a second question for your “revolution” is: where do the extra judges come from?

As I said, the theory might be fine…but the practice?

Cheers
David

[Terry]

Getting back to the earlier point about having a comp for short poems, this would in no way effect the many comps with unlimited lines.
I just thought it may entice a few poets who just enjoy writing the odd short poem to have a go, and I meant quite short poems - 18 line limit I think I suggested - nothing like a bit of variety I reckon.
There are of course several comps now that also allow published poems that have not won a 1st prize - a really good move I think.

Cheers Terry

[Neville Briggs]

I think Matt, that the whole is more than the sum of it's parts, that's even better.

[Bob Pacey]

Ditto Matt.


Bob

around around around we go with not a solution in sight,


Explore I like that.


Bob