Women in bush poetry

[Stephen Whiteside]

Thanks, Vic. Yes, I don't know that second hand e-book shops are ever going to be all that attractive or impressive.

[David Campbell]

It's fascinating to see the range of poems and poets being put forward here, quite a few of which I'm not familiar with, so there's some homework to do! Thank you to all who have contributed so far.

On the subject of 'The Orange Tree' I agree that it's a bit of a puzzle, and was surprised that Neville nominated it here. Although one of the characters is a young girl, the only sense I've been able to make of the poem is that it is contrasting the differing perceptions of something by an adult and a child. The child, perhaps personifying innocence, can see and hear in ways that the adult cannot, and all the adult can do is rattle on with questions that seek an explanation in terms he can understand. In the end, the girl pleads with him to keep quiet so she can enjoy the experience. Thus I don't see the poem as focussing on anything necessarily female, but rather as presenting an observation on childhood. I'd be interested to hear Neville's interpretation.

Cheers
David

[warooa]

You're already onto that poem by the sounds Marty

As for women in bush poetry . . what about Aaah My Boobs by Bobbie Pacey?

[Bob Pacey]

Why thank you Martin to be placed in such company is a great feeling.




Bobbie ? Bobs alter ego.

[Stephen Whiteside]

Very similar to 'Taking his Chance' is 'The Price of a Kiss' by Elise Espinasse. 'Kitty' takes the place of May Carney. I prefer this poem, because it has a happy ending - sort of.

Looking forward to that poem, Marty.

[Neville Briggs]

G'day David , you said there was no right or wrong answer.

John Neilson I take it, is a " traditional " poet. He was a bushman and composed his poems while riding his horse, working on the land. The Orange Tree is in " traditional " iambic metre and abab rhyme.
I took it that the girl is a young woman rather than a small child. Maybe I am off the track there.

I took it that this is a masterly evocative and effective poetic portrait of a young woman , which is what you asked for, that shows a woman's instinct ( woman's intuition ) for the romantic, poetic and spiritual in nature. Contrasted with the man ? who doesn't get it , Maureen knows what I mean, she reckons men don't get it .

The man flounders about with ridiculous pretentious rubbish about a boy with a flute, twisted syntax in stanza 5 and silly kitsch like rhyming love and dove in stanza 8 and the Victorian schmaltzy death bed scene in stanza 9. while the girl speaks clearly about the reality of her experience.

It's not a narrative description. It is a poem, made from words to evoke the perceptive romance of a woman against the shallow pretended romance of a man.

And I picked that because is it a poem. Not a yarn. It is in the tradition of poetry. And also because it is about a woman's womanliness, not about a woman trying to be an honourary man.

[David Campbell]

Guess we'll just have to differ on this one, Neville. I have no argument whatsoever with John Shaw Neilson as a traditional poet or with the poem as being an evocative example of bush verse...merely a problem with your suggestion that the subject matter is essentially about "a woman's instinct". You see the central character as a "young woman" yet she's described throughout the poem as a "young girl". That seems pretty clear. So we have an adult's viewpoint (perhaps the poet's, but not necessarily so) repeatedly contrasted with that of a "young girl". I simply can't agree that it's a man vs woman thing, which is what you're proposing. There are several analyses on the net that also emphasise the child/adult conflict.

Cheers
David

[Vic Jefferies]

Neville, John Shaw Neilson was at his height regarded as perhaps Australia's greatest poet. While he worked on the land for most of his life he was not regarded as a "bush poet."
I have read and re read The Orange Tree for decades and many of the attempts to analyse it but have never been satisfied with any of the explanations. My own view is perhaps one should bear in mind that Shaw Neilson never married when reading the poem and then pay as much attention to the male's questions as the young girl's statements. I have a theory the poem may be about unrequited love and the man's shynness in declaring his love.
Many seem to contrast the characters as a child and an adult, but the poem only says young girl and:
"The heartbeat of a luminous boy Who with his faltering flute confessed, Only the edges of his joy?"
I think perhaps the poem is about a boy and a girl experiencing the first flush of love in different ways,
he too shy to admit it and she seeing something different.
Interesting though that after all this time and tremendous praise heaped on the poem no one seems to really have a definitive answer to what it means. We are still all guessing.

[Heather]

Vic isn't that one sign of a good poem? It lets you put your own interpretation on it and take from it what you want. Perhaps John Shaw Neilson wanted us all to do just that all these years later..

I have fond memories of "Doreen" from my childhood. My mother had a recording of C.J Dennis poems. I'm not sure whose voice it is but there was such a dreaminess about the way he said, "Doreeeen". It stays with me..

Heather

[Vic Jefferies]

In part Heather but I don't believe a good poem should be so abstract that no one really knows what it is about. My mate used to say that if he wanted to be puzzled he'd do a crossword. Of course many of the best poems convey more than they depict but I believe this is really the sort of poetry that caused the decline in the popularity of poetry. I can just imagine how fascinated high school students would be if they had to study The Orange Tree or similar poems at school.

I have always been interested in the similarity between Lawson's Taking His Chance, Elizabeth Espinasse's The Price of a Kiss and Bernard Espinasse's Marion Lee. I have never been able to establish the relationship between Elizabeth and Bernard but assume they were related. Bernard was, apparently involved in the theatre scene in Sydney.

Also find Lawson's use of the names May Carney in Taking His Chance, Mary Carey The Shakedown on The Floor (And of all my friends and kindred, Mary Carey loved me best...)and Cameron in Cameron's Heart and wonder if he was making a veiled reference to Dame Mary Gilmore who was born Mary Jean Cameron and with whom Lawson had an affair.