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Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:38 am
by manfredvijars
Just to follow on from David's earlier post and to keep the topic fresh, I'll add my two-bob's worth.

Metre comes from the word meaning, "measure," and when I think of a measure in the poetic context, I think of sound and music - and not the keeping track by metronomes.

For measuring length we use the millimetre, centimetre, the metre; for time - the second, minute, hour; and for verse, we use the foot, the line(verse), and sometimes the stanza.

In the normal process of language, in any sentence arrangement, with every word of more than one syllable, one syllable is accented or stressed. with words of even one syllable some are given more prominence than the rest. in prose, these accents happen more or less haphazardly, in poetry - the poet arranges them at chosen intervals.

In poetry, the basic metrical unit - the foot - normally consists of one accented syllable and one or two unaccented syllables - though on on occasion, there may be no unaccented syllables, and rarely three.

The foot
I will just name the basic kinds of feet and give an example beneath each one in parentheses:

*iamb (iambic metre)
(to-day)
unaccented/accented

*trochee (trochaic metre)
(dai-ly)
accented/unaccented

*anapest (anapestic metre)
(in-ter-vene)
unaccented/unaccented/accented

*dactyl (dactylic metre)
(yes-ter-day)
accented/unaccented/unaccented

spondee (spondaic)
(day-break)
accented/accented

monosyllabic foot
(day)
accented

[*these four are the important ones].

When the time is taken analyse metre, you can see how certain effects are achieved -- how rhythm (the wavelike recurrence of motion or sound-the natural rise & fall of language) is adapted to thought.

The Line(verse)
The second unit of measurement is the line(verse), and we measure this by naming the number of feet in it; again, some names follow, and it is important to note that poetry need not have every line(verse) the same length -- we are simply looking for patterns:

monometre (1 foot)
dimetre (2 feet)
trimetre (3 feet)
tetrametre (4 feet)
pentametre (5 feet)
hexametre (6 feet)
heptametre (7 feet)
octametre (8 feet)


The Stanza
The third unit, the stanza, consists of a group of lines whose metrical pattern is repeated throughout the poem. not all poetry is written in stanzas, and someone else can have the joy of discussing that topic. but when I say a pattern is repeated, that pattern does not have to be regular and fixed -- and often, it is not even "discernible" to the naked eye.

Metre is a complex topic, especially when we talk about the process of measuring verse, which is called scansion.

To scan, you simply do three things:
1. Identify the prevailing foot - the one that appears to dominate the line.
2. Name the number of feet in a line - if it follows any regular pattern. I personally count syllables to make it easier for myself and divide by 2. That works most of the time.
3. Describe the stanza pattern -- if there is one.


Firstly, read the poem through normally. Listen to where the accents fall. Keep time, keep the beat. Sometimes a line(verse) is highly irregular, so go on to the next when uncertain. Look for easier lines, then you can mark them. once you have the key, you can open the other more difficult doors you passed by before.

A good reader will not ordinarily stop to scan a poem. A good reader will not exaggerate or over-emphasize accented syllables. The occasional scansion does have some value, though at best it will grossly describe the rhythmical quality of a poem. There are degrees of accent. Accented and unaccented are relative terms. Scansion is not an exact science by any means. Within limits we may say it is right or wrong, but beyond those limits there is plenty of room for personal interpretation and disagreement among readers.

Finally, perfect regularity of metre is no criterion of merit. One, if in essence, all art consists of repetition and variation, then if a metre alternates too regularly between light and heavy beats, we effectively kill variation. it becomes mechanical, monotonous. Two, once a metre is established, then any deviations from it become highly significant, and are the means by which the poet can use metre to reinforce meaning.

The skillful use of metre will offer its greatest effectiveness by offering not one rhythm, but two. One will be an expected rhythm, the other is the heard rhythm. The latter will not necessarily confirm the former. this sets up counterpoint, and the appeal of a poem will hold the same appeal as melodies counterpointed in music or two swallows flying around each other in the same general course with individual eye-catching variations. Simple phrasing and variation in the degree of accent, different feet -- these things introduced into the poem will not make it seem as if it flies alone.

The rhythm in a poem works as an emotional stimulus and heightens our attention to what is going on in a poem. by choice of metre and variation within the framework, the poet can adapt the sound of the piece to the content and reinforce meaning. Metre works with all the elements of poetry to produce a total effect.

I maintain that within poetic structure, metre is the dna strand. However, for many it is just another resource, like alliteration or metaphor or irony -- even imagery -- but for a poet to do the job right, all those resources at hand must be used, taken advantage of, in order to best express the object or experience in mind.

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 am
by william williams
Thank Manfred for you have answered a very few questions to which I have problems with.

In my very befuddled brain lurks an ounce of what may once, have been called understanding.

But somehow, that grey matter called a brain that some say I have, is unable to distinguish with emphasized and non emphasized sections of a word in writing. In any writings that I do that comply with ABPA ? standards is purely accidental, so therefore most of my works are free verse
And as such free verse is frowned upon by ABPA standards why could not the ABPA combine that section of free verse that embraces the basic of the ABPA stories about Australia and the Australian way of life in a sensible acceptable fashion or do we wish the ABPA to become old fashion and extinct like the DODO.

Bill Williams

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:56 am
by Rimeriter
Well Bill, that deserves an answer from someone far more clever than I.

Jim.

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:01 am
by Maureen K Clifford
so if I make every written line
the same length measurement
wise ..does that count Manni? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Since so much emphasis is placed on feet - poetically speaking - it probably seems to explain why foot in mouth disease sometimes runs rampant on these pages ;)

My Dad taught all of us as kids to measure twice and cut once

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:06 am
by manfredvijars
I'm not sure that I understand your Question Bill.

What I posted are the basics of metre in poetry. These fundamentals have been around for a lot longer than you or I have. If you have a problem with "emphasized and non emphasized sections of a word in writing", may I suggest that you sound the word/phrase out in your 'natural' talking voice. The emphasis or stresses should become apparent.


Just wondering why a Web-site/Forum unashamedly dedicated to supporting "Rhyme and Metre" would be such a problem for some people. If you want to write 'free' verse - write 'free' verse. Hell, even I do, it's a free country after all.

If you want to further your 'free' verse aspirations, go to a free verse site. We unashamedly declare (check the ABPA Home Page) that we support "Rhyme and Metre"!

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:27 pm
by william williams
I'm not sure that I understand your Question Bill.

What I posted are the basics of metre in poetry. These fundamentals have been around for a lot longer than you or I have. If you have a problem with "emphasized and non emphasized sections of a word in writing", may I suggest that you sound the word/phrase out in your 'natural' talking voice. The emphasis or stresses should become apparent.


Just wondering why a Web-site/Forum unashamedly dedicated to supporting "Rhyme and Metre" would be such a problem for some people. If you want to write 'free' verse - write 'free' verse. Hell, even I do, it's a free country after all.

If you want to further your 'free' verse aspirations, go to a free verse site. We unashamedly declare (check the ABPA Home Page) that we support "Rhyme and Metre"!


Alright Manfred I will try to let you understand the question

1 You have done a very good job in what you say are the fundamentals of poetry

But as you say you suggest that I sound the word or phrase out in my natural talking voice the emphasize or stresses should become apparent
Now if I say “What are you doing today” to me there is no variation.
“May I go now”. To my ears, there is no variation
or if talking to stock I might say “come here you mongrel” but that group of words in italics are emphasized
I suppose my addled brain must be programmed to except emphasized grouped words and not word segments
Once again Manny I am not trying to be smart just dumb or stupid

2 Now who ever made that statement and it certainly is not me needs to check first before making that statement

3 I do not wish to go to another site for their aspirations are to modernist for me
The bush is my life not the bloody city and many good friends are here

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:45 pm
by Neville Briggs
All good stuff Manfred. I totally agree that coming to grips with the subtleties of metre is the main task for writers of any sort of poetry.
It is a difficult thing to put across "on paper", maybe someone has the expertise and commitment to make an audio CD to demonstrate the sound of metric construction. I think that would be a worthwhile project.

I don't think our little cyber chat room is in danger of being infiltrated with free versing, us poets are rebels by nature and a bit of syncopated stuff now and again keeps us from getting too stale. :lol:

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:51 pm
by manfredvijars
Bill, I don't for one minute believe that you are dumb OR stupid. And no-one is kicking anybody off this site!

No one I know speaks in a monotone, and I know you don't either because we've spoken ... :D
As I see it, it comes down to practice.

Bill, try slowing down those phrases as you say them ... slower, even to the point of sounding ridiculous ... and listen for your emphasis ...

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:52 pm
by manfredvijars
.... right on Nev ... :D

Re: Meet her - AGAIN !!!

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:38 pm
by Maureen K Clifford
Bill I have trouble with that as well and I have wondered ???? terrible admission about getting a hearing check done. I had the same trouble trying to learn to drive a manually car - I could not hear the change in revs - which is why I drive barefooted.

Mannies advice is good though and Glennie gave similar - read it out loud to yourself and slowly.

Totally agree Neville - sometimes it is just fun to stir the pot then lick the spoon :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: