Is big beautiful ?

[Neville Briggs]

One time after I entered a poem in a bush poetry comp, I received the poem back with some judges comments. The judge had written " it doesn't have enough meat for a competition".

Enough meat ? I was not sure whether I had been judged for the prize bull or the champion pumpkin in the show rather than poetry.

My understanding is that poetry is distillation of language, the most effective words and if possible the least amount of wordiness to accomplish the most powerful effect.
Yet when I see bush poetry winning entries published, there seems to be a preponderance of loooong versifying. Big, it would seem. is beautiful in the bush poetry competition world.

Thinking of this, I was pondering on the famous exchange between the Athenians and the Spartans ( Lacons ) in one of the ancient Greek battles.
The Athenians got the famous "laconic" reply from the Lacons.

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[warooa]

One time after I entered a poem in a bush poetry comp, I received the poem back with some judges comments. The judge had written " it doesn't have enough meat for a competition".

Was it that Beef Australia comp, Nev?

Seriously though I agree with Marty, and judges have previously intimated as much (a good long poem that 'develops' the story and characters will top a good short poem). I agree that some of the longer 'epic-like' poems prove only that the writer is good enough and disciplined enough to sustained their rhyme and metre over a loooonger stretch.

Size then obviously does matter but I agree it should be more so on what you do with the words rather than how many you can string together.

Cheers, Marty

[Neville Briggs]

It's a puzzle to me Marty and Marty.

If Henry Lawson were to put in his poem Middleton's Rouseabout into a bush poetry comp, would it be held that he had not developed the characters and story enough to make it a good poem ? It's a wonderful poem. And one of very few bush poems to be included in contemporary anthologies. The magic of this poem is that Henry has very masterfully developed two characters and evoked the spirit of rural life, in just a few lines. 28 lines.

Robert Frost wrote a poem ( American but still a bush poem..writing about the farm and his horse and the bush, or woods ) It ends with the lines
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep.

This poem is very very famous, if only for those lines. It's a wonderful poem, only 16 lines.

Shakespeare's sonnet Shall I Compare Thee to A Summer's Day. has only forteen lines, would a poem of forteen lines have a chance in a bush poetry comp ? Yet Shakespeare's forteen lines are still remembered and famous after 400 years.


I realise we , or me particularly, are not likely to be, or aspire to be the next Shakespeare or Robert Frost or Henry Lawson. But why can't we make room and give a bit of encouragement to "Art for Art's sake" amongst our folksey offerings.


p.s. Marty, my entry in the Beef Australia comp was a silly ditty about cooking sausages and drinking beer at the home barby. Strangly enough it didn't rate, obviously not poetic enough

[manfredvijars]

Nev, forget about all the other (Classical) poets ... consider your own works that were recently judged, is it possible that the judge may have made a good point? If, in your opinion, he hasn't, consider this exercise - Pretend the point IS valid. Try to see your piece through the judge's eyes and ruthlessly look for all the things that may obfuscate the 'meat'.
Fat = redundancy. Bloat = padding.

The judges may not be as well versed in pumpkins, bulls or Lacons, however they may well have seen (or endured) many pieces in a few contemporary written competitions. Don't take it personal, the judge doesn't know you. And besides, the points raised may just be valid ...

[Neville Briggs]

I didn't take it personal Manfred. I took it that competition entries had to be impressive by their size because the one in question was not padded or bloated, just the opposite, brief and to the point as best as I could make it.


FORGET THE CLASSICAL POETS !!! NEVER .... heaven forbid, without them we have no foundation to build on.

Never mind. I dream on.

[manfredvijars]

(I meant in this instance - to focus on your own piece)

[Neville Briggs]

I'll think on these things.

[Rimeriter]

Neville, I took to my heart many moons ago to rhyme to my time.

Because I deemed I could never write to suit the many judges who would adjudicate my work.
Even if I knew their names.
One would have to research THEIR various 'wants and mores', then construct a piece to suit.

Not my cup of (billy) tea.
Jim.

[Neville Briggs]

As that famous Aussie philosopher, Wotsisname, once said " Whatever you think's a fair thing ".

By the way, the prize for brevity goes to Oscar Wilde and his publisher. Oscar Wilde sent a telegram to enquire how his latest book was going, The telegram consisted of just one symbol, a question mark. ? Wilde's publisher sent a telegram in reply which had just one symbol, an exclamation mar. !

[Stephen Whiteside]

Neville, the last verse of Robert Frost's poem actually repeats that line "...and miles to go before I sleep", as I'm sure you are aware. I love it. As you are probably also aware, the third line of each verse in the poem dictates the rhyme for the following verse. Of course, the last verse had no following verse, so the third line was unable to serve that function. What to tie it to, then? The next, and last, line, by virtue of simple repetition. It's brilliant.

It reminds me, in a way, of the last line of 'The Play' by C. J. Dennis. In both poems, the poet could be said to have finished the poem a line early, but in fact rescued the situation in brilliant - but different - ways. In the case of 'The Play', the story of Romeo and Juliet finishes when the poem still has one line to run. However, the poem is not just about the play itself, but also about the experience of visiting the theatre. Hence: "'Peanuts or lollies!' says the boy upstairs."

On the question of 'meat' I'm inclined to agree with you. I think a lot of bush poems are too long, and quite unnecessarily so. (I must admit, I feel the same way about Dennis sometimes. He never says in one word what he can say in one hundred.) You are going to struggle to win most bush verse competitions with a poem less than about 40 lines in length. There are some competitions specifically for shorter poems, but you have to look out for them - and don't ask me which ones they are, because I've forgotten. I did know a few once.

Of course, shorter poems are very popular with children's publishers, because space is always at a premium, and children aren't generally going to read long poems anyway. So, if you like writing short poems, write for children. The first poem for children that I sold to a publisher was five lines long.

I recently received over $1,000 for a poem that is 28 lines long, and took me about twenty minutes to write. Having said that, it has never been published, and did not win a competition. So there's more than one way to skin a cat. I placed it on my blog, and it was discovered by a primary school teacher who printed out 20 copies for use in the class room. It turned up on a CAL survey...and Bob's your father's brother, as they say.