What Should I write ?

[David Campbell]

Thanks for posting the poem, Warren...David Malouf certainly knows his way around words. He's recently published a new book of poetry called Earth Hour (University of Queensland Press).

That's a good point, Heather. I know exactly what you mean, particularly when reading a lot of bush verse in one hit...judging a comp, for example. One of the delights of free verse is the greater variation in form, the chance to read (and write) in new and interesting ways. The two free verse poems on the website are relatively standard in structure, but they still have more freedom than the two rhyming verse poems that are there. The Clancy parody above about the lady from Camooweal fulfils all the normal requirements of regular metre and good rhyme, but would it be rejected in a bush poetry competition because it's not set out in stanza format? Almost certainly. Does setting it out like that make any difference to the way it's read? No. So...are there other legitimate ways of presenting traditional verse apart from the ones to which we're so accustomed?

You're right, Bill, there's plenty of room for all types of poetry.

Thank you, Maureen...glad you enjoyed them!

Cheers
David

[Neville Briggs]

Does setting it out like that make any difference to the way it's read?

I suggest that it does make a difference to how a poem is read by the way it is set out.
Because the organizing principle of the traditional poem is the metre and I would argue that the setting out should show the structure of the metre.
Line endings make a subtle but still an important difference to the reading. That is actually the point in so-called free verse. The line endings cannot be just arbitrary, otherwise that is not verse, it is just prose chopped up.

Would be it OK to write music as just a series of notes along a stave without any bar lines, on the premise that it makes no difference to the playing of the sequence of notes, the listener doesn't hear bar lines. Of course there is a difference, because the organizing principle of the music is the metre i.e. number of beats to the bar. This shows the rhythm of the music and is reflected subtly in the playing. And an impiortant element of music is phrasing, pauses where the player takes a breath or makes a slight gap for the rhythm of the whole piece.

In the same way, the metre and line endings of a poem show the rhythm of the language.
The stanzas show the phrasing and a rhythm of the piece as a whole.
So I would argue that your example of the Clancy parody loses the rhythm and one of the essences of poetry is rhythm.

I agree that there are other ways of presenting traditonal verse apart from the way we are accustomed, but I doubt that dispensing with measured lines and stanzas is the way to go.

[Stephen Whiteside]

Neville, your argument applies well enough to silent reading, but breaks down once the poem is read aloud. In the same way that the listener cannot see the bar lines, the listener also cannot see the line breaks. The natural rhythm of the spoken metre and rhyme takes over, creating the same effect regardless of where the line breaks are.

[David Campbell]

Thanks, Stephen, that explains it nicely.

What I’m trying to do, Neville, is encourage some thinking about Heather’s observation that she can be carried along by the rhythm of bush poetry to such an extent that the content suffers. Whereas free verse slows her down, aiding concentration and hence involvement with the subject-matter…like savouring chocolate (great metaphor!).

That’s significant. There’s little point writing a poem that results in people saying: “Great metre and terrific rhymes…but I didn’t take in what it was about!” In serious bush verse, content is the main focus. Metre and rhyme, while important in establishing the integrity of the structure, should fade into the background. We’re accustomed to our poems being set out in stanza form, but unquestioning acceptance of that can be a trap. It’s what leads inexperienced readers to pause at the end of every line no matter what. Clancy of the Overflow is a classic example. How many people pause after “better” in that first line simply because it comes at the end and rhymes with “letter”?

Setting out my parody in ‘prose’ format was designed to emphasise the importance of punctuation, particularly when it comes to enjambment and the natural flow of lines. I don’t think people reading it on the page would have much trouble picking up the rhythm without the stanza format. It might take a little more effort, perhaps, but shouldn’t really be a problem. I’m not suggesting for a moment that we do away with stanzas, merely that we need to be aware that the structure does have some drawbacks. Too much emphasis on the dum-de-dum can ruin a serious poem.

Free verse is different. The metre, if there is one that’s discernible, is not usually regular, so the line breaks (and other visual devices) are needed to assist reading and comprehension. And just to add more fuel to the fire, can anyone explain why the following little ditty doesn't conform to the ABPA rules about "metred and rhymed poetry about Australia, Australians and the Australian way of life"?

Walking in the street one morning I was
talking to a friend who said “I think that
Freddie from the shop around the corner’s
ready to sell up and move away to
Brighton as he thinks that going there will
heighten any chance he has of earning
money that will let him one day go to
sunny northern Queensland when he’s older.”

Cheers
David

[Neville Briggs]

David said "Metre and rhyme, while important in establishing the integrity of the structure, should fade into the background ". ( I add; but still be there ) ........Exactly, you and I are in agreement.

Robert Frost wrote about the tension between metre and sense, along these lines:
If the speaker gives the sense and loses the metre then the work fails as verse, might as well just read it as prose. If the metre is strictly stated then it can become a mechanical plod that robs the speech of life ( ala your example of Clancy and the letter ) The trick is to interact with both.

A good performer will subtly show the progression of bars in music with the flow , and the good performer in poetry subtly exhibit the metre with the sense.
If metre and line breaks have no purpose for performance then why have them ?


Isn't poetry one of those things where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Brighton on the southern coast of England ?

[Heather]

....we'd run out of breath saying it and it wouldn't matter anyway?

[Neville Briggs]

Women don't run out of breath while talking .

[David Campbell]

Ah, Neville, you're in trouble now! (Brighton is a posh suburb in Melbourne.)

How about some other responses to Heather's comments about bush poetry and free verse? (Except Neil. I don't know what he wears, but Heather's clearly got him under control!)

Cheers
David

[Neville Briggs]

Oh

[Bob Pacey]

"Whereas free verse slows her down, aiding concentration and hence involvement with the subject-matter…like savouring chocolate (great metaphor!)."

Only slows ya down trying to work out what the bloody hell they are saying David !


I have not found to many rhymed poems that I could not follow bear in mind that I do not read a lot.


Bob