Bugger Off

[keats]

Personally, I like the fact that our elected government still has a higher power to answer to. As for the flag, that's our flag. I never think of England or the monarchy when I look at it. Just our cricket team!!!!

Neil

[r.magnay]

So we should change the flag because the Kiwi's are changing theirs?....bit like the the bloke who asked the pommy why they drive on the left hand side of the road when most of the world drive on the right. 'We'll change when everyone else does!'.....maybe it was an Irishman.

[Bob Pacey]

I'm sure you are just trying to get a bite Marty.

" its just a piece of cloth , mostly made overseas , no real meaning , certainly doesnt elicit any great pride or anything like that , change it or keep it , it is of little consequence one way or the other "


But if you really do believe that then I can only say to each their own and we will always differ on our opinion.


Next thing you will be saying State of Origin Football is not important ?


Bob

[manfredvijars]

Oh and another little snippet of info , the flags flying on Government buildings in Australia do not have to be made in Australia , in fact it breeches our free trade agreements to legislate that all flags flying on Government buildings have to be made here .

In the Excited States, wherever you go, the flags (and rosettes) are all made there. They consider it unpatriotic to buy a flag made elsewhere ... Almost every house and building fly one ...

[keats]

Bob, I was born in Victorie and brought up with AFL. But State Of Origin is not just important. It is up there with our most important and most attended sporting events. I love it!!!

As for the flag, it's not just a piece of rag. It's our flag. When anybody looks at it, it says 'Australia'. I do not like war being glorified and for the only agreement to be that 'Aussies fought and died under that flag!!' They certainly did. And also under that flag, Australia took some incredible medical breakthroughs to the world: we set ourselves on the International sporting stage: we sit under the flag in the UN, at CHOGM, We fly a millions of the flag on Australia day. It screams AUSTRALIA, not politics or monarchy of anything else, except for those who are pessimists at best or else just want change for the sake of change. I never even take any notice of the union jack in the corner. I take notice of our flag when it is being flown in victory or in loss. Piece of rag indeed!!!!!!!!!

And I hate the Royal Family Mentality of the UK!!

Neil

[Neville Briggs]

its just a piece of cloth , mostly made overseas , no real meaning , certainly doesnt elicit any great pride or anything like that , change it or keep it , it is of little consequence one way or the other

It's hard to tell what your disposition is on this , perhaps just being provocative, but I think if we are going to style ourselves as poets we can't accept an argument like that.
The flag is a symbol. Poets, of all people, should understand symbolism.

We might as well say that a poem is just a piece of paper with ink marks on it. We know that a written poem isn't that, it is the physical representation of an idea.
And the flag, any national flag, is the physical representation of an idea.
Don't we take a lot of trouble to make our poems speak about the idea of Australia, the idea of what we are in the context of our nation and land. In a way the flag does that as well, so it certainly does matter. You could say that the flag is a poem about an idea.

Heaven help us if we think that the idea of who we are and what this place means to us is of little consequence and only a trite notion.

[warooa]

Marty is right - it is just a piece of cloth. If you're patriotic you do things for the love of your country and fellow man, not a piece of cloth.

And I don't know why we pretend to be "flag wavers" like the good ole USA when most of those flags, and product with said flag on, are made in China. It's a bit hollow.

Marty

[Bob Pacey]

Pretty lame argument for a lack of patriotism .

Search around until you find an Aussie made flag, they are out there.

If you apply that theory I reckon you would starve to death.

Bob

[Neville Briggs]

Marty is right - it is just a piece of cloth

So I must be wrong, I wonder why I am wrong, you didn't say.

[Neville Briggs]

My question above was for Marty Pattie, the other one.


To get off the track a little, as usual. As poets, isn't it important that we deal with "sayings " correctly. I am not exactly sure what you had in mind Marty. but you reminded me that the saying by Samuel Johnson " patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel " seems to be used now and again in a way that suggests that patriotism somehow makes a person a scoundrel, or characterizes a person as a person of bad character.

The proper meaning of the phrase is obvious. Scoundrels make all sorts of excuses and
justifications for their bad behaviour. If they run out of excuses they ( according to Johnson ) take refuge in patriotism, a last resort which they consider an unchallengable virtue.
I don't think that the saying in any way, could be interpreted to make patriotism some bad thing, false patriotism surely.

Does George Bernard Shaw suggest that people who adopt a new country after being born elsewhere cannot be patriotic for their adopted homeland.

Samuel Johnson and George Bernard Shaw are internationally acclaimed writers, you want to be careful Marty, are you claiming them as authorities.