Bush Poetry's Credibility??

[Glenny Palmer]

I have seen you work, Marty, & you are good. But more importantly, I have seen your attitude & moral code, & that is the actual basis of a 'premier' poet....so it's only a matter of time, mate, if you maintain that basis throughout your 'apprenticeship'. (A lot of the so called 'would be if they could be's' just do not 'get' that critical requirement, & that's largely why they never really progress, despite some having the fundamental, if not developed, basic talent. We can only applaud the fact that the majority of our 'brotherhood' proceed more morally responsibly.)
Anyway....bloody goodonya Marty. You are a rising star I'm sure...and one of my premier... 'converts.'

Cheeers
Glenny

[David Campbell]

Sadly, Glenny, the problem runs pretty deep. The arts in general are not valued…Campbell Newman in Queensland recently scrapped the Premier’s Literary Awards to save a few dollars. Poetry is a relatively neglected subset of the arts, and bush poetry is only a small part of the overall poetry scene. No wonder it’s a struggle! The same expectation prevails whether I’m dealing with a presentation involving bush poetry, free verse, short stories or newspaper articles…namely, that I’ll do it out of the goodness of my heart (or maybe for ‘petrol money’).

In this context, I can understand the attitude of your poetry group. They took the approach, despite your warning, that any chance to put their work ‘out there’ should be grabbed with both hands. Yes, the offer was an insult, but, from their point of view, they’d probably argue that it was preferable to no offer at all. My own local writing group would have done exactly the same.

It’s a chicken and egg thing. What comes first? Insisting on payment with the aim of raising the profile, and risk missing out on the job altogether. Or taking whatever comes along and hoping your appearance, albeit exploited, will improve the profile. Last year I was asked to write a poem to celebrate a sporting function (cricket) and then turn up on the night to perform it. I set a reasonable price…and never heard from them again.

The whole question of ‘value’ is a can of worms. I place a certain value on my judging expertise, but it’s a price some competitions can’t/won’t pay. So they go elsewhere. They find someone who’s prepared to do it for less. Quite understandable.

That’s the dilemma. Either you charge what you think your services are worth and live with the risk, or you do it for little or nothing and use it as a PR exercise in the hope that it might lead to something else.

Manfred’s suggestion is an interesting one, but how do you define a professional poet? Where is the dividing line between amateur and professional?

I can’t comment on Neil’s observations about the performance side of things as I have no real experience in that area, but it does raise the contentious question of payment/recognition when somebody wins a performance competition using one of your poems. That’s a whole discussion topic in itself.

Although, of course, those who work in the arts are not expected to demean themselves by talking about money! After all, starving in a garret is an essential part of the image…

Cheers
David

[Maureen K Clifford]

I can certainly understand the frustration this causes and think that Brenda's idea certainly has some merit to it. One would expect to pay more to see a performance by the likes of Glenny and Neal and Muzza because they have done the hard yards and are the creme de la creme of Bush Poets, just as one would expect to pay more to see the likes of Paul McCartney for example or the Five Tenors over your local pub performer , good though he may be.

There has to be a base point where one starts and perhaps those running the functions are as much in the dark as most of us are. We have Actors Equity so we need something along those lines to keep the playing field level. You get what you pay for but sometimes you don't quite. And nobody likes feeling ripped off by paying top dollar for second rate anything.

A sliding scale of standard basic fees with room to negotiate sounds like a good idea to me - but in real terms not sure whether that will increase or decrease the desirability of the poet in question. One thing is for sure if we don't value ourselves and our work no one else will.

Maybe we need some Bush Poets to enter Australia's got Talent - the winners of that seem to do well for themselves afterwards.

Cheers

Maureen

[Zondrae]

I'd like to ad my bit..

I began reciting as a walkup at festivals. After a couple of years I began applying as a performer at these same festivals. I have always asked for (by way of payment) two festival tickets and camping fees plus some extra for fuel and expenses. So far I have been accepted at all that I have applied for. I calculate the value of my payment to start from around $250 and upwards. I have only begun, in the last year or so, to consider my presentation to be getting near professional standard. I think I have improved in great leaps but still have a way to go. I only present my own poetry. I don't have cds but I produce little books which I feel are of acceptable quality. Usually the people want to take home a poem they have heard.

The exception by way of payment has been the National Folk Festival. They have offered expenses for the both years I won the awards which have been more, in some cases, than they usually pay their poets. It is a bit difficult when another performer comes and asks you how much you are being paid! If I tally up the price of two full session passes plus the camping fees and some expenses, the National paid me far more than I would have asked for. So next time,
1) do I ask for the same as they have paid me, or 2) do I revert to what I would have asked before I won the reciters award, or 3) does winning this award make me worth more?

What if you accidentally find out how much someone else is being paid? should you adjust your fee accordingly?
and if you have contracted in advance to do two or three concerts and maybe a workshop and then they ask you to do a bit of extra MCing (or judging) on the day.. should you ask for more money? or should you refuse to do it? and chance the reputation of being difficult .(so many worms in this can)

[william williams]

Good on you Zondrae.
Do you kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Or do you keep it happy and enjoying it’s self while you collect those eggs for a few more years.

bill w

[Zondrae]

I agree with you Bill,

It is a fine line between what the festivals or corporate jobs have to offer and what we think we are worth. As you have said, we must be carful not to cut off our own noses or kill the job all together.

[Stephen Whiteside]

Zondrae, I think it's a big mistake to throw festivals and corporate work into the same basket. It has always been understood that festivals pay poorly. The argument has always been, and it has generally been accepted, that there is a trade-off, insomuch as the festivals give the performer great exposure and publicity, and can potentially serve as a launching pad for other more commercially attractive work.

Spontaneity and flexibility have always been at the heart of the philosophy of festivals. It's wonderful the way you can be roped into some show at the last minute. I don't think that's demeaning to either the artist or their craft, it's part of the spirit of generosity that festivals rely on.

It is true that the National is quite generous in its payments. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why it now finds itself in so much trouble - not that I am an expert in these matters.

[keats]

I must disagree on some of the comments so far. My comments were proposed more towards the Private and Corporate function. Although there are moral grounds within Festivals, they are a totally different matter, as they are employing a great many, and a great variety of artists, therefore the funding has to be shared around more and on differing levels, depending on the demand of the artist or their genre. Folk Festivals have always offered Tickets and Accommodation as part of renumeration since I began doing them many years ago. Unfortunately in the early days there wasn't much more to go around. So travel became expensive and it was therefore considered more of a working holiday. But greatly enjoyable I must say! These days, however, I manage to find bookings elsewhere at the times these Festivals are on, which pay extremely better for working in a much more up close and personal setting.

The Corporate scene is totally different. You need a 'Product', an Entertaining Show to present to the Co-ordinators which include,
1. Originality
2. Entertainment and flexibility (this is where Comedy never fails to hit the mark - unless otherwise asked for, which is rarely)
3. A structured and consistent method of quoting.
4. Professional Communication
5. A willingness to follow the EXACT guidelines of the Employer re. the worksheet.

The moral principles are extremely important and have been mentioned here earlier. I think people may be confusing Professional Poetry with Festival Poetry and though a lot of people do both, poor performances and severely under charging at Private and Corporate Functions, is a way to put the Professional Performer out of business. Imagine if John Williamson turned up for a gig and found out he had been replaced by someone else who can 'play the guitar and sing a bit and knows True Blue'? I'm sure he would be happy to see that person get their 'big break' and I'm sure the audience would be thrilled about the situation and the quality of what they are getting for their money. Just remember that some of these functions start at $200 a plate and can be as much as $1000. So does every poet have an hour of original, very high quality and polished entertainment up their sleeve? They had better hope so, or that employer will never again hire anyone associated with 'Bush Poetry.

Just some more thoughts on the subject.

Neil

[Mal McLean]

Well, I've read this thread thoroughly and have had a bit of a think.

Seems to me that professional poets need to be organised, inside or outside the ABPA and to set standards and enforce them and need to have an agent who can handle bookings , payments, etc.

What do I mean by enforce? Well, I am personally aware of some professional organisations that black ball clients for a variety of reasons. No one else within those professions will take that client on unless they have expiated their sins, so to speak. On occasions, the professionals deal with their own members quite harshly as well.

I appreciate it might hurt to part with some hard won and deserved dosh as an agents fee but I think that's the way it works.

It might improve conditions. I dunno.

As a novice amatuer I admire and appreciate the pro's and don't want to see their fine work undercut and possibly ruined by anybody. I sure hope it wasn't any of my mob involved in this.

That's my two bob's worth as well.

Mal

[Glenny Palmer]

Just remember that some of these functions start at $200 a plate and can be as much as $1000.

I'm not myself today (& if I find out who I bloodywell am instead, I'll shoot her!) so I'm a tad muddle headed. I just want to ask you Neil what your above comment means...re ''a plate''
Ta lots
Glenny