Poets and depression/alcoholism

[keats]

Hi again,
just to explain my view point simply and a little more clearly, why I did not like the idea of this post is because it is going exactly where I knew it was going to go. "I knew someone..." "I had this......." "Everybody with depression....." etc.

Of course these subjects need to be aired, and certainly are, a lot more than in the past when I was working in the field of Psychiatric Illness. But in a Bush Poetry Forum? Why not in Rolling Stone and PC Users Monthly?

Depression is not Bi-Polar. Everyone with either are not always suicidal. 'Wallowing in Depression' is not a state that a severe sufferer chooses and certainly what one feels and does during severe Depression or Mania are not indicative of what the next person feels, nor remembers after 'awakening' from the episode.

We have no idea either to what degree our past poets suffered, except to say they wrote some dark reflective poetry. Maybe they were just miserable, pessimistic souls. Maybe not. But all we are doing here is creating theories and categorising people within an area that has had a terrible social stigma over the years and thanks to some groups, is now being placed into public education by some very devoted people.

But I cannot see it doing anything but making for uncomfortable and conflicting reading within a Bush Poetry Forum.

Perhaps write a poem about it as Owly did and post it as just that. Feelings within verses. No bare bone explanations needed.

Sorry, but that is just my opinion and last say on the topic. I know it was meant to be a simple thread, but these topics get out of hand very quickly as none amongst us are experts on these subjects.

Neil

[Zondrae]

and again.. may I add my bit.

I could never have a flippant attitude to mental health. (I would love to be able to have had my mother diagnosed)
One of my daughters suffered terrible with post-natal depression. It is so illogical, and she knew it, but could not overcome the urge to cry and cry or the irrational thoughts that her husband would take their beautiful baby and leave her. Or the vivid nightmares where an intruder crashed through the window and took an axe to the child. It took trials of three different drugs before the one that was necessary was discovered. One sad thing is that it took so long to find the right one that she lost her milk. So she didn't have the joy of breastfeeding.
Within 48 hours of starting the one that worked, she was back to her normal self. It was like turning on a light switch. I had my daughter back. She went from not being able to be left alone, and looking at me with those vacant eyes, to her usual, all organised and totally capable, fantastic young woman. She had to remain on the pills for 12 months and then wean off them. She was prepared with the second child and started the pills fairly soon after the birth.

I have never forgotten the absent look in her eyes. Is it only a mother who could look at her child and see instantly that 'she' wasn't there? I kept asking her if she was alright but she tried to hide her feelings and tried to pretend that everything was fine. I suspected something from the night of the birth and it took almost four weeks before she would admit she couldn't cope and needed help.

and as for me.. I know I'm a little strange but I don't mind. Who would wish to be totally average.

[Heather]

I don't think anyone here was claiming to be an expert or was analysing - just making some observations. No one has said "everyone with depression" and why not talk about it here or any other place? I also think that talking about it helps to remove the social stigma.

I made my observations about the poets - Lawson, Kendall but particularly Lawson, from their biographies and the fact that the other two suicided while suffering depression is well known and documented. Like Stephen I most defintely think there is a link between "some" creative minds and depression. I stress "some". I simply find it an interesting discussion about how the brain works.

In years past we didn't talk about death, child abuse or post natal depression. If we talk about it as though it is something that occurs in daily life then those who suffer from it may realise they are not alone and will not only talk but hopefully seek help. I don't think it is something we should be uncomfortable talking about.

Zondrae I recently read Brooke Shields book about her journey with post natal depression and found it very interesting.

Heather

[Stephen Whiteside]

Thank you for sharing your stories, Heather and Zondrae.

Neil, I feel maybe you are falling into the 'expert trap' - because you have a great deal of expert knowledge, you feel nobody else is entitled to express an opinion unless they also share that knowledge.

All we are doing is speculating about the possible link between mental illness and art - it's hardly a new idea, and it's always going to be a very inexact science - barely a science at all, really. You are complaining about the loose use of the various psychiatric terms - with some justification - but that's the easy part of the equation! How do you measure or classify somebody's artistic talent? You can't, and you probably never will be able to. Hopefully you never will be, or else the entire meaning of being human would just about be lost.

Still, it's natural to speculate like this. Sure, we're throwing around lots of names, but they're all long dead. It's not like they're going to be hurt - and most of what we're saying has already been published elsewhere anyway, which is how we know about it.

I don't think you need to worry too much.

[Vic Jefferies]

Without going into the field of psychiatric illnesses it has long been recognised and understood that some artists (painters, sculptors, writers, poets, etcetera) enter or have entered a different mind set when creating and some claim not to remember having written or produced what have gone on to be regarded as masterpieces.
The most covered song in the world, Yesterday, was written by Paul McCartney as a result of a dream he had. Samuel Taylor Coleridge who wrote amongst other classics The Rime of the Ancient Mariner claims to have had no recollection of writing the poem. Though the fact that he was addicted to opium at the time may have had something to do with his lack of memory.
I faintly remember Picasso reportedly making similar claims about some of his paintings: that he had no recollection of painting certain works.
The creative process can be and often is a very lonely and frustrating time and I think this may account for some of the very sad lives we read about.

[Stephen Whiteside]

Interesting points and examples, Vic. I see it a bit as the chicken or the egg. Is it simply the exacting nature of the work that leads to loneliness? Or do artists find themselves abandoned because of their narcissism? Or a bit of both, perhaps? (The answers to all these types of questions usually end up being 'a bit of both'...)

Does the writing drive the loneliness? Or does the loneliness drive the writing?

[Wendy Seddon]

Well, we all know each other a 100 times better now.
That in itself is invaluable when our lives are so intertwined
through our passion for poetry and interacting with each
other at festivals or on the net and such.

Carefull... we may start acting like a real family!!!

[Heather]

Vic brings up an interesting point. How many poets have gotten up in the middle of the night to write some lines or a poem that is coursing through their head? And who, if they don't write it then and there can remember what it was the next morning? It has happened to me although I don't seem to get the poems in the middle of the night any more.

The brain is a funny machine.

Heather

[Stephen Whiteside]

Yes, Heather, my problem is I lie in bed and write a verse, get up to put it down on paper, go back to bed, write another verse, get up to put it down on paper, go back to bed, write another verse...etc. It's somewhat anti-social.

[Vic Jefferies]

'Tis a complex question with I should imagine even more complex answers.
I have no doubt that many artists enter a different or altered state when they are creating and cannot achieve what they wish without entering that mind set.
Writing or composing can be a very lonely and frustrating time with some authors labouring for years to produce their work which is not always favourably received. Vincent Van Gogh who committed suicide at 37 springs to mind. It is doubtful if he ever sold a single painting while he was alive and his work was in the main rejected.